Going to Heaven
Samy's Post : "Going to Heaven"
The concept, that many Christians have, that only believers are going to heaven and everybody else is doomed in hell is in fact a non-Christian concept. Statistics show that around 31% of the world population proclaim to be Christians, if 25% are true believers then, according to the concept that believers alone are going to heaven, we have only around 7.5% of the world population going to heaven and the remaining 92.5% are going to hell
That can’t be true since it directly contradicts the image and personality of God that we all know, it is illogical that God condemns 92.5% of his creation to die in hell! If we accept that God in his mercy and goodness would never allow or do that, then we must also accept that non-believers and non-Christians will have a place in God’s eternal heaven and that is based not on the attornment of the blood and the cross but on whatever measure God has for these people
But, even if we accept by our mind that some people will never cease to say that there is only one way to heaven and that is through the cross of Christianity. This is exactly like saying Jesus came for the Jews only, or Jews were the chosen people and now us the church are the chosen people, without realizing that Jesus came for the whole world. His salvation is not restricted to Christians but it is extended to the whole world. And his grace and mercy is extended to all human being. He shines his sun on all of us May God have mercy on our minds and souls
Makram Response
فَرَدَّ يَسُوعُ: «أَنَا هُوَ الْقِيَامَةُ وَالْحَيَاةُ. مَنْ آمَنَ بِي، وَإِنْ مَاتَ فَسَيَحْيَا. وَمَنْ كَانَ حَيًّا وَآمَنَ بِي فَلَنْ يَمُوتَ إِلَى الأَبَدِ. أَتُؤُمِنِينَ بِهَذَا؟»” إنجيل يوحنا 11:25-26 KEH https://bible.com/bible/101/jhn.11.25-26.KEH
Samy's Response
Samy Behman Makram Barsoum في هذا يكتب لي صديق هذه الكلمات من أجمل ما كُتب في هذا الصدد. لقد حان الوقت أن نتعرَّف على مسيح العالم كله. حان الوقت أن نعرف مسيح الشارع، مسيح الناس، الناس كل الناس، الذين عرفوه والذين لم يعرفوه، مسيح الأشرار والأبرار، الصالحين والطالحين، في كل مدينة وقرية، في كل شعب وأُمة، في كل أنحاء العالم، مسيح العالم كله. المسيح أكبر من ركن الصلاة في البيت، المسيح أكبر من صحن الكنيسة والكنائس كلها. المسيح لا يَرضَى بأقل من العالم كله.. فلماذا نحصر حب المسيح ونكتمه، ونحكم أنه لا يكفي إلا لنا ولمن يتبعنا فقط؟!.. هل آن الأوان أن نعرف مسيح الماديين والملحدين والمستهترين من شباب الدنيا الذين لما لم يجدوا مسيحهم في كنيسة أو في أب صالح أو قدوة طيبة، المسيح الطيب الذي يحيا لهم وبينهم ويحمل خطيتهم... نحن لا يهمنا موقف هؤلاء الناس من المسيح، ولكن الذي يهمنا هو موقف المسيح منهم.. إنه مسيح العالم كله .. ابونا متى المسكين
Questions
- Why do numbers matter? what ratio would be good enough?
- How do we know what the image of God is?
- Have you heard of an alternative method of salvation the satisfy your concern about ratio of people accepting it?
- In order to have any discussion or debate, we need to establish a reference point. What do you think that should be?
My Responses
Introduction
I confess that I have limited knowledge and not as diverse in these issue as you are.
I have struggled in the past with these issues and more and by grace of God, I came to some understanding (be it limited) that I am trying to share here
The propositions that I am making here are based on my understanding of the [Bible] and my understanding of how to interpret the Bible
My motivation here is not convince anyone of what I believe but rather listen to others opinion and learn from it
Point of Agreement
You stated: "His salvation is not restricted to Christians but it is extended to the whole world. And his grace and mercy is extended to all human being. He shines his sun on all of us May God have mercy on our minds and souls"
I fully agree, Religious association or Church membership is not a criteria for His salvation.
Logical contradictions in the argument
Ratios Fallacy
- Why do numbers matter, should God's law change because there are many breakers?
- Is it fair to allow everyone to pass an exam because only few have passed it?
- On what basis do we base this argument.
- If we really care about the numbers, then let us go and reach out those lost and declare the Gospel
Claim: "it directly contradicts the image and personality of God that we all know"
- it assumes that we know God. - It assumes that we know all dimensions of God’s personality - It assumes that we All agree about the personality of God
However: - Our limited and corrupted mind, can't understand all dimensions of God. Can we really know God, can the finite really understand the infinite? - A limited man can't reach God or discover Him on our own. - God had revealed to us what we need to know about Him (not everything about Him) through the Bible
Claim: "based not on the attornment of the blood and the cross but on whatever measure God has for these people"
- You failed to mention God's justice - What is wrong with the plan - Do you have another plan - Can God have multiple plans for different people, will it be fair
If there is another way, God would have made available to all of us, But in His wisdom, He devised the only plan for salvation that meets His attributes of Love and Justice.
Throughout history philosophers can't come with another solution
Propositions
All of the propositions below are based on my understanding of the Bible as a whole and my attempt to use proper Hermeneutics in interpreting the Bible
What is Heaven/Hell
Heaven is not a nice place for people to gather, if it is, we will ruin it in no time.
Heaven is the presence of God.
Likewise, Hell is not a horrible place, it is an absence of God and we have many demonstrations of that; Soviet Union during Stalin, North Korea.
Any place no matter how nice and beautiful without God will turn to Hell.
Jesus is the only way
When we say Jesus is the only way, we are saying "to go to God you need God", this quite logical.
To be with a friend, simply go to directly to him, can't tell him I want to be with you but not with you. that is a clear contradiction.
So our message is very simple, Jesus (second person of the triune God) is inviting everyone to come to Him and spend eternity with Him, and humans are free to accept or reject.
Who is going to Heaven
Salvation (Heaven) is not limited to Christians, Old Testament Jews are saved by Jesus work on the cross (Hebrews 11), also the Bible speaks of many non-Jews that knew God.
We believe that man can't reach God, but it is God that reaches humans Anyone, regardless to their background, that is honest in responding to God's call, God will find them a way to salvation.
The only people that will not be in heaven for sure, are those who refuse God's invitation, therefore, they chose to be without God, God will not force them
Quoting Matta Al-Meskeen
This is simply a red-herring; nothing of the quote relates to the topic
Alternate Way of Salvation
Let us suppose for a minute that there is another way of salvation other than the Cross, then these questions arise:
- How do you make sure that it gets to the entire population? - How do you make sure that people accept it? - How do you stop competing narratives from banning it and shutting it down
I believe that the problem is not that Jesus solution is not exclusive, that problem is that man has rejected God and does not want anyone to tell him what to do.